TONYA MOSLEY, HOST:
This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley, and my guest today is Tim Robbins. Academy Award-winning actor, director and founder of The Actors' Gang, a theater company he started in Los Angeles back in 1981 with a group of fellow UCLA students. We sat down in October in Sheboygan, Wisconsin, after a live performance of his new play "Topsy Turvy" at the Kohler Arts Center. Sheboygan itself is a small lakeside city right next to Kohler - a place with a rich art scene. The performance was part of the city's first film festival, which wrapped with a 30th anniversary screening of "Dead Man Walking," the second film Robbins directed.
"Topsy Turvy" is about a chorus that's lost its ability to sing together after the pandemic's long isolation - a metaphor that hits uncomfortably close to home for many. And in a way, it connects to what Robbins has explored for more than 40 years - impossible reconciliations between people with opposing beliefs, between guilt and redemption, between isolation and connection. From "The Shawshank Redemption" to "Bob Roberts," to his prison theater work with The Actors' Gang, he circles around one question - how do we find harmony when we've forgotten how to listen? Robbins and I talked about why he's taking an experimental play on the road instead of making another prestige TV show. And I asked him about how the COVID lockdown and the isolation that followed affected him. Here's our conversation.
TIM ROBBINS: Well, in many ways, the lockdown was illuminating to me. Things that I had held sacred or had held as truths were challenged during that time. And what it made me do was it made me question myself and question what my beliefs are. And I think that's a very healthy thing. As a writer, I need to do that all the time. As an actor, I have to do that. So drama is about finding the complexities and the conflicts that we all have within ourselves. I think that's the way to approach these discussions about society at large. When you're dealing with them in a play or in a movie, you have to give respect to the other side.
MOSLEY: So for your writing process, how does the idea of the chorus - because "Topsy Turvy," they're a chorus. This collective voice help us think about the division. What was it about that particular way of being able to tell the story that you felt was a way to be able to get at that division?
ROBBINS: So just a reminder that in Greek theater, which was kind of the start of what we think of as Western theater, the purpose of these plays that they did - both comedies and dramas - were to involve the citizenry in a dialogue with the gods. So the citizenry in those plays were represented by the chorus. And the chorus would have a big dilemma. And the dilemma usually had something to do with something that had happened recently in Athens or in Greece. And what we were seeing on stage was a way for the society to look at what had just happened and be able to explore that, ask questions about it, and see the story told through the dialogue between the chorus and the gods.
And I felt the subject matter of those plays - recent wars that had taken a lot of lives, plagues, different conflicts within the societies - I felt that this was such a unique and extraordinary time that we were living in, that it was up at that level of Greek tragedy and Greek comedy. The degree to which this whole world locked down - this has never happened in human history before. The coordinated locking down of societies throughout the world. You know, I was - you know, as I was seeing this develop, I was like, there's got to be one country that just says, no, we're not doing this (laughter).
And I just was blown away, but it had this kind of coordinated unanimity, and it - that scared me a little bit. And I was like, well, what is this really about? What is this about? And so those questions led me to ask those questions in the play, using the chorus as a means to figure out these people who - lovely singing together at the beginning of the play, they sound beautiful. And then they are told they have to separate. And so how does a chorus harmonize when they are kept from each other?
MOSLEY: I'm just curious, Tim. I mean, you're an Oscar winner. You can do anything. You could be in movies. You've done prestige television. What is it about playing in hundred-seat theaters and devoting your time to it? What do you think it is about the theater to be able to articulate the story that you're telling in "Topsy Turvy," that can't really be told anywhere else?
ROBBINS: I have complete freedom. And I've always, from the very start, held that to be the most important thing. We started The Actors' Gang out at UCLA in 1982.
MOSLEY: And when you say we?
ROBBINS: I'm talking about eight or nine young, punk rock-infused actors that just wanted to make some noise and have fun and tell stories. And we did this play called "Ubu Roi," "Ubu The King." This was the first play we did, and we did it in this dark street in Hollywood at midnight on Fridays and Saturdays. And it was a big success, and it told us that we have this great opportunity, and we started doing other plays. And - but then I started - right around the same time, I started getting work. And I had financed "Ubu The King" on my salary from delivering pizzas in Beverly Hills (laughter). If you're going to deliver pizzas, by the way...
MOSLEY: That's the place?
ROBBINS: ...That's the place.
(LAUGHTER)
MOSLEY: Good tips? Yeah.
ROBBINS: Good tips. And so then I started working, and I realized, Oh, well, I can fund the next play with this one paycheck, right? And so I started this kind of dance, and my agents hated it because they're trying to build momentum, and I would say to them, well, I'm happy to work through this time, but then I'm going to do a play. And they were like, oh, Broadway? I'm like, no, no, I've got this theater company, and we're going to do this thing. So I need, like, three months free, four months free, and I don't want to go out on any auditions. And so they were like, you're crazy. That's stupid. And I was like, well, I'm sorry, that's what I'm doing.
And so this going back-and-forth in the first five, six years of my career, was absolutely essential for my survival. And what happened was, my perspective was one of use that great gift that you're getting from working in TV episodics and sitcoms, and make art with that. So this continued for the past 43 years.
MOSLEY: If you're just joining us, my guest is Tim Robbins, the Academy Award-winning actor, director and founder of The Actors' Gang theater company. We recorded this conversation in front of a live audience at the Kohler Art Center in Sheboygan, Wisconsin, after a performance of his new play, "Topsy Turvy." We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF MISHA MENGELBERG TRIO'S "ROLLO III")
MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. And today, you're listening to my conversation with Tim Robbins, who's been exploring themes of isolation, connection and redemption for more than four decades from "The Shawshank Redemption" and "Bob Roberts" to his prison theater work with The Actors' Gang. His new play, "Topsy Turvy," examines what happens when a chorus and a society loses their ability to sing together.
Let's go back to a young Tim Robbins. Is it true that you started acting with a street theater group at 12?
ROBBINS: Yeah.
MOSLEY: First off, how does a 12-year-old find a live theater group on the street? Like, how did that happen?
ROBBINS: So my sister Adele, who's in the play, so she was working as a stage manager at this place called the Theater for the New City. And they were doing weird theater. You know, this is, like, late '60s, early '70s, Greenwich Village. You know, there were plays with nude people in them and, (laughter) you know? And so I got kind of interested in what she was doing.
(LAUGHTER)
MOSLEY: Of course you did.
ROBBINS: And so Crystal Field, who ran that theater company, and still runs it to this day, invited me to be in a play called "Undercover Cop." And I was to play a gang member. And it was, you know, this kind of satire about what was going on in New York City at the time. And I found myself acting on the streets of New York.
And what that meant was that they would pack a truck with four 4-by-8 platforms raised up about 2 feet, which was the stage, a couple of iron bars that held a backdrop and a truck that had all the costumes in it. So we would go to a different neighborhood every Saturday and Sunday in the month of August and set up our stage, set up an audience area, do a little parade in the neighborhood to get more audience and then do this play for 45 minutes to an hour.
MOSLEY: What was the reception like? Do you remember how people received you?
ROBBINS: Well, you have to understand, most of these people are seeing theater for the very first time. We're not going to wealthy neighborhoods. We're going to, you know, all kinds of neighborhoods in New York. And the reception was always great. One thing those audiences didn't have was the filter that you learn when you go to theater a lot.
(LAUGHTER)
ROBBINS: So there was an awful lot of talking back.
MOSLEY: Call and response. Was it kind of like a call and response, though, in a way?
ROBBINS: Yeah, which is great. And by the way, you learned very quickly that that's a reality you have to deal with. Not only that reality, you have to deal with Mama up four flights yelling for her kids, or someone yelling or some guy that's drugged out who's just wandering onto the stage all of a sudden. And he's there and it's like, oh, what's he doing? We had one scene where George Bartenieff, this actor, plays this guy named Dog Fiend. And he's like, he's a thief. And he grabs one of the character's onstage purse and runs away, right? And we had three guys chasing him.
(LAUGHTER)
ROBBINS: Like, he's running faster than I have ever seen him run. He comes backstage. And we're all like, no, no, it's just the play, it's just the play. They were ready to kick his ass. It was so funny.
(LAUGHTER)
MOSLEY: Those were some really good lessons for you as an actor, as a performer.
ROBBINS: Yes. And I didn't learn till much later how rooted the street theater of that, Theater for the New City, was in the commedia dell'arte, which is what that was. Back in the 15th and 16th century, it was basically street theater. They wouldn't do commedia dell'arte, plays, in fancy theaters. They would do them in a public square. And they were itinerant companies. They would do their show, they'd pack up and they'd go to the next town. And so I've done a lot of exploration into that whole world of commedia dell'arte since and have come to understand how vital an art form it was, because they were telling stories that were absolutely relevant to the world around them at the time.
I know this about theater. I know that as a child, when I saw something transformative, something that blew my mind, I can still remember those plays. They're still with me. That's the power that theater has. It can actually transform a consciousness. It can change an opinion. It can illuminate a truth in an immediate way, not in a manipulative way, because film can be very manipulative. And it's how long does it last? Is it candy or is it a substantial meal? And, you know, for example, with "Dead Man Walking," when we were in the final stages of editing that movie, there was a whole bunch of people that were saying, Tim, you got them in the palm of your hand. Why do you show the murder again during the execution?
MOSLEY: At the end of the film.
ROBBINS: Yes. Yes.
MOSLEY: Right.
ROBBINS: Why are you doing that? And my response was, because it's true, because it's what happened. And I don't want them in the palm of my hand. I want them to make their own mind up about this. And if I've led them into a compassion and understanding for this particular person that did a terrible thing, and if they have an inclination towards forgiveness or at least maybe anti killing that person, well, great. But if I've done that by manipulating them, they're going to forget about it five minutes after the movie is over.
So we have to be responsible to those parents of those people that lost the children and remind the audience at the end, remember this? This is why he's here, OK? Then if they still, after this, feel the same way, then we've done something significant. But anyone can manipulate with propaganda. It's so easy to do. But it's more difficult to get to a resolution in a complicated way that allows both sides to have dignity. Once you're there, it's my belief that's when real discussions happen, where people's minds do change.
MOSLEY: Two things you're saying. First off, I don't think we here in the United States are used to thinking about the media that we consume as propaganda. And...
(LAUGHTER)
MOSLEY: Well, that word is often just used to talk about media from other parts of the world.
ROBBINS: Yeah.
MOSLEY: It's never really used in the American context. When did you start to realize that or come to that understanding or that idea that movies in particular could be a form of propaganda?
ROBBINS: I had a concept of it. But then actually to be in them, you get a larger understanding of that. So when I broke through, when I became famous and didn't have to audition anymore, I would get scripts - right? - sent to me.
MOSLEY: And when was...
ROBBINS: After "Bull Durham."
MOSLEY: Take us to the time - OK.
ROBBINS: After "Bull Durham" came out. So I saw all the scripts - right? - that were going forward. And an awful lot of them had content that made me uncomfortable. And I would consider, in retrospect - I wouldn't have identified it as propaganda then. But I would, in retrospect, identify it as propaganda now.
MOSLEY: I'm curious, what types of roles were you getting offered after "Bull Durham"? What were the things that you were turning away that you felt like were propaganda?
ROBBINS: Movies that had this kind of vigilante idea of justice or this idea that violence is somehow entertainment, like, you know, where there's just a lot of death. Like, you know, remember those movies like "Rambo." And, you know, I remember going to one of those movies and going, let's do a little counter here. Let's count how many deaths we see here (laughter). And, you know, one explosion takes - well, that's about 20, you know? And adding up the amount of death you've consumed in a two-hour period. And something about that, I think it must - I don't know what it is. But something about that really disturbed me, the idea that people are enjoying watching people murdered. That's weird. And it was all too prevalent.
And it continued and continued and continued. And to the point where I believe today that's the predominant movie and streaming service kind of thing we see, is just a bunch of violence that's uncontrolled. Now, violence is absolutely important in the storytelling of some stories. Like, for example, "Dead Man Walking." There's a very violent act that happens in it. But that's necessary for the drama. It's not for entertainment. It seems like a lot of these movies were, you got to have a death every, you know, 10 minutes or the formula goes to pieces, you know? It just seemed weirdly exploitative and weirdly pornographic to me. It was just, like, gratuitous death.
MOSLEY: I just want to know where your moral compass comes from. Like, you know, I've heard you say, like, you've turned down $7 million offers.
ROBBINS: The moral compass comes from having extraordinary parents with a very strong moral code, sense of justice. My father was a folk singer. When his group, the Highwaymen, were playing in the South, he refused to perform to segregated audiences. So in the South, they used to have, you know, the separation. And he said, we're not going to perform unless you integrate this audience.
And so from the very start, I had a very strong sense of what was going on in the world, what our society was capable of and also what our society, the traps it can fall into. And they were both Catholic. My father was the choir conductor. He had a chorus, (laughter) like in "Topsy Turvy." And also, I think, weirdly, it was also having been a Boy Scout. Yeah. The code of the Boy Scout is pretty extraordinary, the characteristics that the Boy Scouts of America demand.
MOSLEY: Our guest today is Tim Robbins, Academy Award-winning actor, director and founder of The Actors' Gang. Let's take a short break. I'm Tonya Mosley, and this is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF BILL FRISELL SONG, "ONE OF THESE DAYS")
MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. Today, you're listening to my conversation with Tim Robbins, who's marking the 30th anniversary of his film "Dead Man Walking," a story about guilt and redemption, while also touring a play that asks whether we can still find harmony after years of disconnection. Robbins has starred in numerous significant films, including "Bull Durham," "Jacob's Ladder," "The Player" and "Top Gun." He gained widespread recognition for his role as Andy in "The Shawshank Redemption," and he won an Academy Award, a Golden Globe, and a Screen Actors Guild Award for his performance as Dave Boyle in "Mystic River."
You mentioned that you had so many folks that really opened up your consciousness as a young man, as a boy, a lot of theater actors. But what movies, what art, what shows, kind of, like, informed your consciousness and also informed your thoughts that this is something that you could do?
ROBBINS: I saw "Pippin" on Broadway when I was a kid. That was pretty remarkable. I saw some theater in the park, the Shakespeare In The Park productions that were extraordinary. One by a guy named Andrei Serban, a Romanian director who I would meet many years later and be able to show him my production of "Midsummer Night's Dream." And it was like, you know, I've had these incredible moments with people like that - mentors, people that, you know, like, for example, Dario Fo, the great Italian playwright, Nobel Prize winner. When I was in college, I read his play "The Accidental Death Of An Anarchist," and that was the first time that I felt I could write a play. So that was the starting point for me. And then to be in Milan.
MOSLEY: What was it about the play that made you feel like I can do this?
ROBBINS: So funny. But he was talking about a real incident that had happened where a activist was murdered in police custody. So this very serious subject matter but hilarious farce. And the mix of those two, when I read it, I thought, that would be incredible to be able to mix those two things with something that I'm thinking about right now. And so, to then, 30 years later, meet the guy and have him endorse the play I had just directed and then invite me into his world and - to the point where the following year, I was back in Milan with a play I had just written about the commedia dell'arte called "Harlequino On To Freedom," and I'm sitting at his feet as he's telling me his notes on the play. And I'm just like, how did I get here? And I had a similar experience with Robert Altman.
MOSLEY: Oh, yes. Right.
ROBBINS: So, like, when I was in high school - and you mentioned what affected me or influenced me - seeing "Nashville" in 1976? (Vocalizing). Blew my mind. I thought I had seen movies before that, but I had never seen anything that encapsulated the whole society in a movie. And I thought, wow. Wow. You can make movies like that? And I was addicted to his movies after that. And all those other great filmmakers, by the way, in the '70s, Hal Ashby with "Harold And Maude," and Pakula and, you know, all those great early Scorsese movies. And, you know, there was - it was a fertile time, you know, these were incredible people. So then to years later being in a room where I'm meeting Robert Altman for the first time - I'd driven there, I had asked my agent, what are the sides? What do I have to do? I want to be in this movie. No sides. No audition. He just wants to meet you, right? So I'm sitting down at lunch with Robert Altman at his place.
MOSLEY: And take us to the time period. This is...
ROBBINS: 1991.
MOSLEY: ...1991.
ROBBINS: And I'm - well, you know, I've done a few movies, and he wants to meet me on this show called "Short Cuts." And I had this incredible lunch with him, and he said, the reason I wanted to meet you is because of the theater you do. Because he had been doing a lot of theater because he had been kind of persona non grata in Hollywood for a long time, and he needed to keep creating. And so he did theater. And it was his interest in The Actors' Gang that got me in the room. And then "Short Cuts" didn't happen, but he remembered - and he remembered me, and he said, I'm doing this new movie called "The Player," and I want you to do the lead in it. And I was absolutely in. Had to turn down $1 million in order to do it. And I had to then wait while the financing came through, and it took a while.
And what I found out later was that Robert Altman was offered his budget with a different actor, and he said, nope, I promised this kid, and I'm staying with him. And because of that loyalty, I was able to be in a creative relationship with one of my heroes. And I'm sitting there in the office observing - during pre-production, observing Bob talking to department heads, and they'd come in and they say, Bob, you know, what do you think about this? Blah, blah, blah, what do you want to do? (Vocalizing). And Bob would always answer with, I don't know, what do you think? And they would say what they thought and then they'd leave. And after they'd leave, I'd say, Bob, you know what you want, right? He says, yeah, I know what I want. But why would I cheat myself of a better idea? So I got to understand what humility is in the creative process.
MOSLEY: But teaching you that humility and also, like, why cheat yourself out of a great idea, it sounds like that's an ethos that you've taken with you throughout your career.
ROBBINS: Absolutely. For me, working with Robert Altman on three films I worked with him on was my film school. It was my way into being able to direct. In fact, directed my first movie about three months after I finished doing "The Player." And I took his cameraman and his first AD and - with his blessing, of course. And then, Bob - every edit I had of that movie, "Bob Roberts," every edit I had, Bob was at. So I'd show it every Friday, and I'd invite friends, and Bob showed up every Friday. He says, getting better, kid. Getting better. That kind of thing, that mentorship, that love, I, you know, been so blessed to have people like that in my life. I miss him tremendously. There's so many times, particularly in the last five years, where I've just wanted to pick up the phone and call him because I need his advice.
MOSLEY: If you're just joining us, my guest is Tim Robbins, actor, director and founder of The Actors' Gang. His new play, "Topsy Turvy," explores how the pandemic's isolation changed the way we listen to each other. We'll be back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF NAOMI MOON SIEGEL'S "IT'S NOT SAFE")
MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR, and today we're talking with Tim Robbins, who's reflecting on more than 30 years of filmmaking, the lessons of his anti-war play "Embedded" and why he believes live theater can sometimes speak to us in more profound ways than film.
"Shawshank Redemption" is one of your most popular works. I'm sure just about everywhere you go, someone talks to you about it. Is that true?
ROBBINS: Yeah, yeah. It's very nice. It's very nice. It's - I was joking with a friend of mine, you know, 'cause we were out, and, you know, about three or four times, someone came up about "Shawshank." And they were like, does that bother you? I said, not at all, you know? 'Cause you know what would bother me is if I got famous for a movie where I played Kookie McGuber (ph)...
(LAUGHTER)
ROBBINS: ...That would really bother.
MOSLEY: Yeah. Yeah.
ROBBINS: Hey, Kookie McGuber. That would be horrible. That would be a nightmare. But (laughter), as it is, this is something - this is a movie that really moved people.
MOSLEY: What do you think it is about this movie that - because it wasn't a box office hit when it first came out. What people are relating to really are, like, the ability to see it over and over again. I was on the phone with my mom, and I told her I was coming to do this, and she got really quiet. And she said, "Shawshank Redemption's" my favorite movie. And I said, yeah, I know, everyone's favorite movie. But what do you think it is about it that people keep going back to it over and over again, and it hits the tender place within them?
ROBBINS: Yeah. I think we all want to believe that despite the challenges we have in our lives, the obstacles that are placed in front of us, that there is a spot on a beach in Zihuatanejo for us. I think that prison can be a metaphor for other things in life. There's many people that are in jobs that they, you know, have to have but are not particularly liberating, shall we say. There's people in relationships that they should be out of. And I think there's various ways that we can close walls around ourselves in our life and imprison ourselves mentally and emotionally. And I think the idea that Andy had the long plan and could see a future that was brighter, I think that's something that people want to believe in.
I also believe that it's one of the very few rare stories where you see a male friendship that is not contingent upon car chases or skirt chasing. It's not a buddy movie, which I've done a few of. It's a movie about a real friendship between two men, a love story in a lot of ways.
MOSLEY: Does your view of that role and that film evolve as you grow and evolve?
ROBBINS: I just appreciate it for everything it is, what a gift it has been because when people come up to me and talk to me about that film, it's not like I love that film. It's that that film changed me. That film made me think in a different way, not to mention the times that I talked to people that have been incarcerated. And I do work with people in LA and California that have been incarcerated. The Actors' Gang has prison programs. We do rehabilitation inside the California correctional system. And what that movie means to those that have been incarcerated is profound - this idea of hope, this idea that freedom can be achieved even in the direst circumstances. So it's about what's inside. That's why Andy survives.
MOSLEY: You got 14 prisons you all have done work in. Did the idea come after "Shawshank Redemption," because of "Shawshank Redemption?" How did that idea even come about to do that prison work, where you all put on theater productions in prison?
ROBBINS: No, we don't do productions. We go into the prison system and teach classes. The aim is to work in the way that we work at The Actors' Gang. When we're workshopping, we use the commedia dell'arte. The reason we use it is because we want to free people of the idea that they have to create a character out of whole cloth. So you go to one of those characters, and then the more important part of the work is you have access to four different emotions and you have to choose one of them when you come onto stage. And those emotions are happiness, sadness, anger and fear. That's it. So make a choice when you come on stage of one of those emotions in the character that you are playing.
And when I took this training in 1984, I couldn't get on stage. I was already a working actor, and there was this French actor named Georges Bigot from the Theatre du Soleil that just performed in the Olympic Arts Festival in Los Angeles. And they were this big sensation. And he was running this workshop, and I wanted to take it, right? And he would not let me on stage. He'd yell at me. He said, get off, get off, get off. And I couldn't figure it out. And I got really frustrated.
And then I saw this one actor make an entrance, and I understood what Georges was talking about - this total theater, from the moment you come on stage, in an image, a character, an emotion and an urgency and an importance to tell this story. And that was where everything shifted for me for the work that we did. This idea that the access to these four emotions is key to everything, but also the ability to shift from one emotion to another immediately, as it happens in life. You can be having the worst day in the world and find 100 bucks on the ground, and go, hey, yeah. That's a good day, right? That's the way emotion works in us.
And so when you bring this into prison and you say, you got these four emotions and you have to be able to switch from one to the other like that, that's the training. So now you get a situation where they're in an improv as different commedia dell'arte characters, and one of them is angry and then the other one is angry too. And you say, hold on, hold on. This isn't much of a scene because it's only going to be a fight. But what would happen if you responded to that anger in a different emotion, sadness or happiness or fear? What would happen? And so they do that improv, right?
Now, what are they learning here? They're learning that they have a choice in the emotion that they have in response to anger. That is the starting point because it gives them agency over their own emotions. If they can do it in a theater improv, they can do it on the yard. And they do. And they realize - they come to us with these incredible statements, like, you know, I didn't realize until I took this class that I have been wearing a mask on the yard for the last 20 years. The mask is anger. That's the way - that's the emotion of survival in a prison - the anger face, the face that says, I will kill you if you approach me.
MOSLEY: Yeah.
ROBBINS: And in this class, they realize, I am more than that. I'm more than my anger. I have these other emotions. And for the first time in 20 years, I've been able to laugh like a giddy fool because I'm playing a character.
MOSLEY: Tim, thank you so much for your work, your honesty and this time that you've spent with us to tell us just a little snippet about your life and your career. Thank you so much, Tim.
ROBBINS: Thank you, Tonya.
(APPLAUSE)
MOSLEY: Award-winning actor Tim Robbins.
Coming up, TV critic David Bianculli reviews the new Netflix miniseries "Death By Lightning." This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF BEBO VALDES TRIO'S "LAMENTO CUBANO") Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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