MICHEL MARTIN, BYLINE: Just over a year ago, massive student demonstrations in Bangladesh led Prime Minister Sheikh Hasina to flee the country after 15 years of increasingly authoritarian rule. Military leaders assented to the protesters' demand that Nobel laureate Muhammad Yunus be appointed interim leader. He's scheduled to speak at the U.N. General Assembly Friday, where he told me the message he wants to convey is one that also drives him as an individual.
MUHAMMAD YUNUS: We have to create a new world, a world of three zeros - zero net carbon emission, zero wealth concentration, zero unemployment.
MARTIN: It all represents a remarkable turn of events for Yunus, a prominent economist known for his decades of work on strategies to fight poverty. He'd been among the many critics targeted by Sheikh Hasina. At the time of the protests, Yunus had been fearing arrest on what he said were trumped-up charges. Then seemingly overnight, he became the country's leader, promising to serve only until elections are held. I met him last year as he was still coming to terms with stepping in as interim, and I met him again this week in New York.
Muhammad Yunus, thank you so much for speaking with us once again.
YUNUS: Thank you. Thank you for coming back.
MARTIN: It's not easy inheriting the hopes and dreams of millions of people who aspired for change. It was a surprise when you were asked to take over this role as interim leader. What's been the hardest part for you, and is there anything that's really surprised you?
YUNUS: Not surprised me, but disappointments.
MARTIN: Like what? Give an example.
YUNUS: For example, law enforcement. These are the same people who are shooting at the young students. Suddenly, they are the one that's put the law in order on the street, and people say, you are the one who are shooting at me. People who did it, they were demoralized because they are afraid that they will be beaten up. There is no identity that this guy is wrong. This guy is right. For them, these are police wearing the uniform. So...
MARTIN: So a lack of trust.
YUNUS: Yeah, lack of trust.
MARTIN: The lack of trust in...
YUNUS: Lack of trust.
MARTIN: ...Sort of the normal sort of mechanisms of civil order...
YUNUS: Absolutely.
MARTIN: ...Have been really broken. And what - do you feel like you're making any progress in restoring that kind of trust?
YUNUS: We have come a long way, definitely. I think within this period, we restored the confidence in the police force. But again, you're in a broken system. It takes time for people to have complete trust.
MARTIN: Transparency International Bangladesh is a global anti-corruption, good governance organization. It says that there is still a persistence of mob violence, and there is still the persistence of extrajudicial killings. Do you agree with that? Is that true...
YUNUS: Problem first...
MARTIN: ...In your estimation, as well?
YUNUS: ...First problem is Sheikh Hasina is not giving up. She's in India. She has set up her office, controlling her party members inside the country. Many leaders have fled, but the followers are still there, the diehard ones who benefited from this government. And they have enormous amount of money they took away from Bangladesh. They're controlling it, pushing it back again so that they can create trouble inside the country. The threat is the fact that the government of India is allowing Sheikh Hasina to do that out of the soil of India. And in the meantime, we have announced election. So we want to have an environment where election can take place.
MARTIN: I understand that elections have been set for February of 2026. Is that correct?
YUNUS: That's right.
MARTIN: Do you think you're on track to keep that date?
YUNUS: Oh, it's very much. People are very happy that we are pursuing that objective. We have three objectives. One is the reform, and the second commitment is the trial of the leaders who are behind all the killings and so on, mismanagement of the country. And the last one is the election. All the political parties are on board, so we are preparing for the election to come.
MARTIN: Is it your belief that members of the party that Sheikh Hasina belong to the Awami League, will participate in elections?
YUNUS: No, they are not allowed to participate.
MARTIN: They're not allowed to participate.
YUNUS: They're not allowed because their activities are banned.
MARTIN: If leaders of the party were to renounce violence and to take accountability for past violence, would they be allowed to participate?
YUNUS: Well, we'll see. I mean, we don't know in what terms they are saying that, and they are showing on the street. Today, they are occupying the street and suddenly they come in a big force to disrupt the political activities in the country.
MARTIN: So let's talk about the economy because I think, as many people may remember, your core expertise is economics. You're the founder of the Grameen Bank, which pioneered the microloans to help people improve their standard of living and so forth. So how would you assess how the economy is doing? What's going well, and what are the pain points as far as you understand?
YUNUS: We have come a long way. It was a devastated economy. So we have to start all over again to make sure that banks start functioning, businesses start functioning. We start paying back our obligations to the international companies and so on. So we are on track.
MARTIN: But is it my understanding that in 2024, about 20% of the country's total disbursed loans defaulted, which was actually 28% higher than the previous year? Is this correct?
YUNUS: Yeah, it was...
MARTIN: Yes.
YUNUS: ...Devastated economy.
MARTIN: Yeah.
YUNUS: So we took the country. If you can imagine, 15 years of earthquake. What do you see? Pieces. So you have to find the pieces to put together to start again. So this is the one-year period that we have spent busy with doing that. So that would be a good occasion to see that happy ending for the interim government. So we hand over the responsibility of running the government to the elected people.
MARTIN: And you have no intention of standing for election?
YUNUS: No, not me. I came from another world. I'll go back to my world.
MARTIN: I wish I could describe the hand gesture you just made. It was like, no.
(LAUGHTER)
MARTIN: It was big no. So just duly noted.
YUNUS: Absolutely.
MARTIN: You know what I wanted to ask you about? You know, Nepal recently had its own Gen Z revolution.
YUNUS: Yeah.
MARTIN: It lasted less than 48 hours. In the past couple of years, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Nepal. I'm just wondering, what do you make of these uprisings that seem to have rippled across Southeast Asia? What do you make of it?
YUNUS: I would say two things. One, young people today can communicate very well because of technology. They can implement their ideas as quickly as anybody could even dream. At the same time, where they are becoming powerful, there's a tremendous amount of corruption in the system. They are suffering from this corruption, and they don't see future. So they stand out against that. And this is what happened in Bangladesh.
MARTIN: What do you say to young people who say that, I put my body on the line for change, and I don't see it yet? How do you encourage them? What do you say?
YUNUS: Keep fighting. Don't give up. This is your country. You have to build your own country the way you want.
MARTIN: That is the interim leader of Bangladesh, Nobel laureate Muhammad Yunus. Thank you so much for speaking with us.
YUNUS: Thank you.
(SOUNDBITE OF ADAMAME'S "AREA INDEX")
STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
Now, they mentioned a group called the Awami League, allegedly causing trouble in India. We did reach out to that group - haven't heard back. We also heard from the government of India, which said last month, it is, quote, "not aware of any anti-Bangladesh activities by purported members of the Awami League in India." Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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