STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
OK. We heard some Ukrainian voices on President Trump's apparent shift on Ukraine, also a Russian assertion that they're not a paper bear. But in any case, let's hear an American, too - William Taylor, who's a longtime U.S. diplomat who has been ambassador to Ukraine and also served in the first Trump administration. Ambassador, welcome back.
WILLIAM TAYLOR: Thank you, Steve. Good to be here.
INSKEEP: President Trump wanted to end this war on Day 1 of his second administration. We just heard a Ukrainian analyst read his latest comments as saying, OK, I'm done here. Somebody else's problem. Is that how you hear it?
TAYLOR: It's not, Steve. I think President Trump is committed. As you say, he started off committing to - in the campaign. Says he's going to do it in 24 hours. Well, it turned out to be harder than that. Turns out that his buddy Putin was not ready to make any deals and - but President Trump has stuck with it. He's made this - as near as I can tell - the top foreign policy priority of this administration. So I think he's committed. I think he's there.
INSKEEP: Well, that's really interesting. There's a question that I've raised with a number of guests on this program, as listeners will know. I'm going to raise it again with you. There are at least two views of President Trump and the way that he would think through a situation like this. And one idea is that he doesn't learn, that he's been repeating the same slogans since the 1980s. But another view of the president is that he does learn, that he adapts, that he adjusts, that he makes tactical changes. Do you think he's learning here through this process?
TAYLOR: Absolutely learning. He is - again, he thought he could make a deal with President Putin. He has learned - and I think he's really learned - that he can't, that Putin is not for turning. Putin is not for negotiating. Putin is not for ending this war. Putin is for continuing this war, and President Trump has figured that out. I think he's also figured out that President Putin has been stringing him along. Tapping him along, I think the president said. And that is - that's where President Trump is. So he's now ready to support the Ukrainians.
INSKEEP: Is he in a stronger position politically then? Because the president has this faction of his party that really wants out of this conflict, but he has shown that that's not really possible right now.
TAYLOR: It is not really possible right now. And the - it's not clear where the Republican Party is. What we do know is there are 86 sponsors and co-sponsors of a bill in the United States Senate. Eighty-six that put harsh sanctions on Russia and nations that buy oil from Russia. A strong support for Ukraine. That's 86. When you talk to - when you ask the American people, same strong support. So I think he's got political cover to do exactly this.
INSKEEP: But let's try to figure out this situation. The president also said Russia can lose the war. They're a paper tiger. Ukraine could end up actually taking some of their territory. But I come back to some fundamental realities here - realities of numbers and size. Both countries are suffering. Both countries are losing lots of lives every day, and Russia is still a lot bigger - a bigger economy, a bigger population. What is the way, if any, for Ukraine to overcome that?
TAYLOR: The way is what Zelenskyy said yesterday - allies. Allies and weapons. And he's got a lot of allies. He's got more allies than the Russians do. The Russians have - what? - the North Koreans and the Iranians with rhetorical support from the Chinese. So the Ukrainians have allies. They have NATO. They have the EU. They've got, you know, South Korea. They got - they've got allies, and what is necessary is weapons. They've got - they make their own. They make 50% - Ukrainians make 50% of the weapons that are being used on the battlefield now. They need the sophisticated heavy-duty weapons that the West can provide.
INSKEEP: It seems to me that the Trump administration then has reverted to something like President Biden's approach to the war. Ukraine fights the war. The United States, the West supplies Ukraine as necessary with one adjustment - that the U.S. doesn't want to keep sending free weapons to Ukraine. It wants to sell weapons to NATO nations that would then pass them on to Ukraine. How does that approach compare to Ukraine's needs? By which I mean, are they currently getting everything they need? And if not, what else do they need?
TAYLOR: They're not getting everything they need. What they need is the long-range weapons that go deep into Russia at military targets that can then take out military depots, ammunition dumps. They go after their airfields. This is what they're doing with their smaller drones, which are great. They're doing a great job against the refineries. But what they need is the - a large number of deep-strike large missiles.
INSKEEP: Americans used to worry about triggering World War III or a nuclear response if Ukraine was allowed to attack Russia too harshly. Are we no longer worried about that?
TAYLOR: Of course, we always have to be somewhat worried about that. But there is no indication that that's a serious concern, no indication that that's what the Russians would resort to. There would be no military benefit to them to doing that, and the political backlash would be terrible.
INSKEEP: One final thing. Are you sure that this is the president's final position, that he won't shift again the day after tomorrow?
TAYLOR: No one could be sure of that, Steve, of course. What we have to do, though, is build on what we've got today. And what we've got today is strong support for Ukraine and really a harsh condemnation of the Russians.
INSKEEP: William Taylor is a former U.S. ambassador to Ukraine and served in the first Trump administration. Ambassador, always a pleasure talking with you.
TAYLOR: Thank you, Steve. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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